The 1986-1987 Orangemen versus the 2002-2003 Orangemen

It is difficult to compare teams from different eras, as the game of basketball changes in terms of style, rules and size of the players. And yet, it can be an interesting exercise to go through.

The 1986-1987 Orangemen and the 2002-2003 Orangemen both played their National Championship games in New Orleans, with the final results differing. As Syracuse fans vividly know, 2003 was the lone NCAA National Championship, while 1987 was a heart breaking loss on a Keith Smart shot.

The two teams had a lot of similarities.  Both teams improved as the season went along, and were playing their best basketball during the NCAA tournament.  Both teams were of course coached by Jim Boeheim.  Both teams had leads in the NCAA Championship game, and struggled to make their free throws during the last minute. In both cases the star freshman forward (Derrick Coleman and Carmelo Anthony) missed the front end of a one-and-one that could have sealed the win.  In both cases a senior forward (Howard Triche and Kueth Duany) missed the front end of a one-and-one that could have also sealed the win.  The most clear difference in the championship game is that in 2003 Hakim Warrick blocked Michael Lee’s 3 point shot attempt, whereas Howard Triche could not cover Keith Smart’s 2 point shot. 

The two teams, however, were different in many ways. The 1987 team started the season ranked #15 in the country, and would rise to #5. They were 5-6 versus AP Top 20 teams, including three losses to Georgetown (including two classics).  They won the Big East Regular Season title, and lost in the BET Championship to the Hoyas.

The 2003 team started the year unranked and did not crack the top 25 until January 19^th; they would actually drop out of the top 25 again, and then return for the rest of the season on January 26^th.  The team was 7-2 versus AP Top 25 teams, and beat Georgetown three times. They would not win the Big East regular season title nor make it to the BET Championship game. 

The 1987 team had balanced scoring with five different players averaging 10+ points a game. Those five players also all scored 20 or more points in at least one game, and three of them (Triche, Sherman Douglas and Rony Seikaly) scored 30+ points in a game.  There were a lot of options for who would lead the team in scoring on a given night.

The 2003 team had four players scoring 10+ points a game.  Five different players did score 20 or more points in a game, but make no mistake about it, that Anthony was the alpha dog on scoring, and led the team in scoring most nights.

The 1987 team had more collegiate experience.  The starting five consisted of two seniors, a junior, a sophomore and a freshman.  2003 had one senior, two sophomores and two freshmen.

The 1987 Orangemen played both zone and man-to-man, along with a mix of full court press.  Zone defense was typically used in inbound situations in the half court, whereas man-to-man was used in normal routines.  Syracuse was comfortable pressing a lot utilizing Seikaly as the last line of defense if the press was broken.  The three point shot had just been introduced in 1987, and college teams in general were not geared towards preventing it.  Syracuse did play Providence, a Rick Pitino team that lived-and-died by the three point shot, and the Orangemen did beat them three times.  They did have problems with Steve Alford in the NCAA Championship with Alford hitting 7 of 10 attempts, though a few of those were on fast breaks where he pulled up and took the shot from the arc as the defender back pedaled.

In 2003 Syracuse was playing its vaunted zone defense almost exclusively, and the team played it very well by the season’s end.  Gerry McNamara was very good at picking off passes in the lane, and Duany made an intimidating guard at 6’5” at the top.  The back of the Syracuse zone was tall and long limbed with 6’8” Anthony, 6’8” Warrick and 7’0” Craig Forth.  Jeremy McNeil would offer a change of pace on defense, and was the shot blocking expert in the back line.  The three point shot had been well established by 2003, and the Orangemen were very good at closing out on perimeter shooters.

Offensively the 1987 Orangemen played an up tempo game, and loved to push the pace of the game.  Despite being up tempo, they did a decent job of not being too careless with the ball.  Sherman Douglas had a 2.4 assist to turnover ratio, and his backcourt mate Greg Monroe was even better at 2.9.

The Orangemen loved to score from the inside, relying on Seikaly and Coleman to pound the ball home.  Douglas was the master of the alley oop pass and he would lob the ball over defenses allowing the very athletic Seikaly, Coleman and Stephen Thompson to dunk the ball home.   Monroe was the only real three point threat, and he became very adept at it hitting 44% of his attempts.  Monroe basically camped out on the three point arc, and Douglas would drive and kick the ball back out to him.  Douglas was extremely good at driving the lane and putting up the soft floater, or dish off to the big mean down low.  The team was fortunate to have two pure point guards in Douglas and Monroe.

The 2003 Orangemen ran all of their offense through Carmelo Anthony.  Melo was the most gifted offensive freshman that Syracuse has ever had.  He had good ball handling skills, excellent moves to the hoop with a short jumper and a decent three point shot.  Billy Edelin became more integral into the team as the post season progressed, but the offense was run by Gerry McNamara.  GMac was not a true point guard, but he ran the offense well. He was a sniper with a reputation for making the clutch shots.  Warrick wasn’t a main threat on offense, but he got enough touches to become effective as the third option.  Duany was decent all around, and offered a very good third three point shooting options, behind GMac and Melo.  The team had a decent perimeter attack, and an alpha dog to run the offense through.

Both teams had an Achilles heal with their free throw shooting.  The best free throw shooter on each team was the point guard, which helped in close games.  Douglas hit 74% of his shots, while McNamara hit a blistering 91%.  For 1987, Monroe and Triche were okay, Coleman and Seikaly were marginal, and Thompson and Derek Brower, both from the bench were awful.

For 2003, Anthony was okay from the free throw, while Duany, Warrick and Edelin were marginal.  Forth, Josh Pace and Jeremy McNeil were terrible.

How would the two teams match up? 

Point Guard:  6’ Sherman Douglas versus 6’2” Gerry McNamara. Douglas is definitely the better point guard; we are talking about perhaps the best point guard in Syracuse history, and that’s no disrespect to McNamara.  Douglas was quicker, and would likely be able to drive past GMac.  GMac is clearly the better shooter, and the height advantage over Douglas would help him. The 1987 team, because they played a lot of man defense, may have put Monroe on McNamara.  That could backfire, however, because that meant that 6’ Douglas had to guard 6’5” Duany who was adept at hitting the three.  Stephen Thompson could come off the bench and help shutdown McNamara or Duany, but Thompson wasn’t an integral part of the offense in 1987.  Overall, edge to 1987.

Shooting Guard: 6’3” Greg Monroe versus 6’5” Kueth Duany.  Both were seniors.  Monroe was by far the better shooter and the better ball handler. He was very comfortable at running the offense when needed.  Duany would be the better defender and rebounder, and while Monroe was the better shooter, Duany was not a slouch.  If Billy Edelin came into the game and moved to the point, then Douglas would have had to guard him, and Edelin at 6’4”, who specialized in backing defenders into the paint, may have had a good time against Douglas.  In that scenario, Monroe would have been guarding McNamara.  Tough to call.  I would call it Even.

Small Forward:  6’5” Howard Triche versus 6’8” Carmelo Anthony.  Triche was a senior and a solid all around player, but there is no comparison here. Anthony, one of the greatest freshman players of all time, is significantly better than Triche.  Syracuse would likely have had Derrick Coleman guard Anthony in man defense, and that would have been very interesting.  Coleman was a decent shot blocker and at 6’11”, with a very long reach, Coleman would’ve been a tough matchup for Anthony.  I do think the offensive expertise of Anthony would have won out, but Coleman would have made him work for it.  The 1987 team likely would have had Triche attack the side of the zone that Anthony was on, and that would have pulled Anthony a little further out from the hoop, but not much.  Overall edge, 2003 by a lot.

Power Forward: 6’11” Derrick Coleman versus 6’8” Hakim Warrick.  Coleman was a raw offensive player in 1987, with very good hands and the ability to make the short jumper.  His greatest ability was to crash the boards for rebounds, and run the court.  Warrick was coming into his own by the end of the 2003 season, and had that explosive first step to the hoop.  Warrick would have had a tough time matching Coleman on defense, as Coleman’s height and reach would give him an advantage.  Warrick would have had Triche to beat defensively, and Warrick’s speed and size would have helped him a lot there, especially since Warrick played above the rim.  Overall edge, 1987.

Center: 6’10” Rony Seikaly versus 7’0” Craig Forth and 6’8” Jeremy McNeil.  Forth and McNeil split time at center, so that would give the 2003 Orangemen 10 fouls to use, and two big bodies to keep fresh against Seikaly.  Seikaly was definitely better than either Forth or McNeil. He was much more athletic, could run the court very well, and by the end of 1987 had developed a short jumper and some nice post moves.  Forth likely would have been the tougher assignment for Seikaly as he took up more space, and would make it tough for Seikaly to get to the hoop, whereas McNeil could be pulled out of position on the block attempts.  Seikaly handled centers much better than Forth/McNeil in the 1987 NCAA season run.  Forth and McNeil would offer very little offensive against Seikaly.  They both were limited offensively to begin with, and Seikaly was a premier shot blocker in his era.  The offensive liability of 2003 centers would allow Seikaly to cheat and defend against other 2003 players going to the hoop. Overall edge, 1987 by a lot.

Bench:  The 1987 team really went two players deep. Stephen Thompson was the backup shooting guard and small forwards, and specialized in defense and running out for passes on the fast break, as well as putting back loose balls for easy dunks and layups.  Derek Brower was the reserve big man, and he was a load in the middle. Not much of an offensive threat, but solid defensively.  The 2003 team had Josh Pace, the aforementioned Edelin, and McNeil. Pace would offer a good change of pace for the 2003 team, something that the 1987 team really did not have.  At 6’5” he would have a disadvantage against the tall 1987 front line, and Triche may have been able to take him on.  Overall edge goes to 2003.

Coaching: The 2003 Jim Boeheim was likely a better coach than the 1987 Boeheim.  Boeheim had 10 years of experience in 1987, whereas he had 26 in 2003.  Overall edge goes to 2003.

The big questions would be the following:

·         Could the 1987 team run the ball as much as they would want, or would the 2003 team be able to prevent it? If the 1987 team were able to run the ball, could the 2003 team keep up with them?

·         Could the 1987 team slow down Melo?  If they couldn’t, would they be able to contain the rest of the team enough so that Melo didn’t matter?

·         Could the 2003 team slow down Seikaly?

·         Could the 1987 team guard the three point shooting of the 2003 team?

·         Could the 2003 team handle the full court pressure of the 1987 team? 

In the end, I think the 2003 team would win the game.  I think the 2003 team could handle the full court pressure. Melo would be able to help bring the ball up court, and with him and Duany helping in that area, they would be able to move the ball over the press defense.

The 1987 team would have a tough time covering Duany or Edelin, whomever was playing the other guard position to McNamara.  I don’t think the 1987 team is going to stop Melo; they may slow him down but not enough.  The question would be how much could Seikaly help Coleman on defense.  If he could rotate over, he could have been very effective at stopping Melo.  Seikaly would probably have a big day offensively and defensively, but he would get quite a workout against Forth/McNeil, and lest we forget, Warrick and Anthony could collapse on defense and help double team.

Douglas would be very tough to stop on the penetration, and he would get his points and his assists.  Douglas was able to master the alley oop in the NBA, so he would get the pass off against anyone. 

f the game was close, I would not want to be either squad trying to protect the lead.  I am not one of those fans who believe that Syracuse won the 2003 title only because of Melo. It was a complete team effort throughout the playoffs. But in this hypothetical matchup of 1987 versus 2003, I think he does bring matchup problems, especially with Warrick at the other forward position.  And in the end I think 2002-2003 beats 1986-1987.

Searching for that Big Time Scorer (30 points)

Amidst Syracuse’s scoring woes in this young season, I find myself longing for a big time scorer on the team.  The type of player who could carry the team for a night, with a 30+ point effort.  It may seem that Syracuse does not have that type of player right now, but that would only be if you have a short memory.  Trevor Cooney bombed Notre Dame for 33 points last February 2014 as he hit 9 of 12 three point shots.   Of course, we all know that Cooney can shoot; it is just that he can be very streaky and inconsistent and he is currently in the middle of a long slump.

Overall, 58 different Orangemen have scored 30+ points in agame; this has been accomplished 179 different times.

The first time was in 1904 when George Kirchgasser scored 30 against Jenners Prep.  Kirchgasser scored all 30 from the floor; he took no free throw shots in the game.  Because it was an earlier era, it isn’t recognized today as an official accomplishment.

The first official 30+ point game by an Orangemen occurred in 1943 when Bob Shaddock scored 30 over rival Colgate.

The Syracuse record for points in a game is 47 by Bill Smith.  Smith shot 17 of 23 from the floor, and made 13 free throws in a high scoring game against LaFayette.

Dave Bing scored 30 or more points in 20 different games, or roughly 26% of the varsity games he played at Syracuse.  That’s just in case you ever really wondered about the greatness of Bing.

Sharpshooting Greg Kohls is next on the list with 14 games with 30+ points.  The amazing thing about Kohls was that he barely played his sophomore season (freshman couldn’t play in his era).  He played 54 varsity games his junior and senior season as like Bing, scored 30+ in 26% of the games. Kohls was a terrific perimeter shooter; who knows how many 30+ point games he would have had if there had been a three point shot in that era.

Billy Owens is third with 10 games with 30+ points.  Owens was the first player under Jim Boeheim to average 20+ points a game. 7 of those 10 games occurred his junior season, after Derrick Coleman and Stephen Thompson had graduated.

30 point games have occurred everywhere.  94 times they have occurred at home (53% of the time).  59 occurred at the opponent’s home court.  8 occurred in a mid-season tournament, 2 in the post season NIT, 1 in the ECAC, 7 in the Big East tournament and 8 in the NCAA Tournament.

It may be surprising to see what players never accomplished the feat.  Derrick Coleman, Syracuse’s second all-time leading scorer never scored 30 points in a game.  Part of that reason was that Coleman was always surrounded by other great scorers in Sherman Douglas, Rony Seikaly, Stephen Thompson and Billy Owens.  But Douglas, Seikaly and Owens all did it.

Stephen Thompson, Syracuse’s 7^th all-time leading scorer never hit 30.  I’m sure besides playing with other great scorers, that the inability to make free throws and a three point shot kept Thompson from that mark.  Thompson was a great scorer though; I’m not sure if there was ever a better scorer in the Boeheim era.

C.J. Fair, who finished as Syracuse’s 15^th all-time leading scorer, never did it. Nor did Brandon Triche at #17 (though his uncle Howard did it), or #18 Todd Burgan, or #22 Jason Hart.

There have likewise been some surprising players who have had the unexpected big nights.

NFL Hall of Famer Jim Brown had the talent on the basketball court, as well as the gridiron and the lacrosse field. He was second on the team in scoring his sophomore season with 15 ppg, and he would score 33 against Sampson Air Force Base that winter. 

In January 1952, Bucky Roche scored 35 at Cornell.  The senior guard was second in the team in scoring with 14 ppg; but he had scored only 121 points in his career before his senior year.

In December 1962, sophomore guard Phil Schoff would score 30 points against Cornell in a big loss.  Schoff would finish the season as the teams third scorer at 10.4 ppg.  Schoff would lose his starting position his junior year with the arrival of Dave Bing, Sam Penceal and Chuck Richards, though he would remain a valuable reserve.

In December 1986, senior forward Howard Triche would score 31 points in win over Northeastern. Triche was the fifth leading scorer on the team that year, and that was the only time in his career he would lead the Orangemen in scoring for a game.

The most surprising was probably Gene Waldon.  Waldron put up 40 points against Iona in the 1983 Carrier Classic. Waldron did this in the non-three point era.  He was the fifth leading scorer on the team that year, averaging 9.2 ppg and Waldon had never been a big scorer before.

If not for Waldron, the most surprising may have been senior Allen Griffin.  Griffin would score 31 in a double overtime win against St. John’s .  He as the fourth leading scorer on the team at 10.8 ppg, and had averaged only 3 ppg his junior year.  His method of scoring 31 points was highly unusual too. Griffin only made 5 of 9 baskets that night.  However, 3 of those 5 made field goals were 3 point baskets.  And he was sent to the free throw line 22 times where he made 18 of the them.

All in the Family

Brandon Triche comes to the Syracuse basketball team this fall, and it will be interesting on how he does. He has big shoes to fill with Jonny Flynn leaving early for the NBA, but Triche has been under the spotlight for several years now. As it is well known, his uncle Howard Triche, was a starting forward on the 1987 team that lost the NCAA Title to Indiana by a shot.

The pairing of Brandon and Howard Triche would be the 19th pairing of relatives in Syracuse basketball history. I must admit there may be some relatives I’ve missed… the nineteen are the only ones I could verify so far.

Ironically, this will not even be the first time that Howard Triche makes the list. His cousin was Jason Hart, and Hart played quite successfully for the Orangemen, and has had a lengthy NBA career.

I won’t go through the entire list; you can check it out yourself. However, there have been some notable family combinations for the Orangemen.

First, let me start with the combination that is not on the list, but I think deserves some mention: the Thompson brothers. Billy Thompson was a solid player for Syracuse in the late 1930s, a three year starter and high scorer for his era. His brother Bobby, was an outstanding high school player in the early 1920s, and the star of the Syracuse Freshman team. Bobby Thompson was considered one of the top upcoming basketball players in the country, but was sidelined by poor health, and would never play for the Orange varsity. I thought they deserved a mention.

I think there were six prolific family combination in Syracuse history. The first was the Riehl Brothers, Max and Albert. Max was a three year starter for the Orangemen, playing from 1905-08. He was part of the famed Buffalo German AAU team, and helped bring the Orange basketball program to promise. Albert played for Syracuse for three years, 1911-1913, and while not nearly as good as his older brother, he was a starter his senior year.

Next came the Lee brothers of Newark, NY (don’t get them confused with their 1970s counterparts). David Lee played for Syracuse from 1906-1907 and his younger brother Matt would play from 1908-1910. David was a solid forward, and a good score. Matt would essentially replace David when he graduated, and Matt would be a three year starter, a prolific scorer; he would lead his team in scoring in every game but one his senior year.

Syracuse would have to wait almost forty years for the next prominent family connection. There were some potential strong unions in between: the aforementioned Thompson brothers, the Katz brothers of the 30s, Maister brothers of the 30s, Glacken brothers of the 40s. But either injury, or academic ineligibility, or World War II, would disrupt things.

After World War II, the Stark brothers would make their appearance. Mike, Pat and Lou were all outstanding athletes, and would all have some time on the hardwood. Mike was a four year player; a small player, but very fast, and a sparkplug on the court from 1946-1950. Pat was the star quarterback of the football team; during the off season he would put some time into the basketball team in 1952 and 1953, and would be a starter for the portion of the 1953 team, averaging 9.7 points a game. Lou would be a reserve on the 1955 and 1956 teams.

The 1970s saw the emergence of the Lee brothers from Kirkwood, NY, and Syracuse would resurge under their leadership. Mike was a short forward at 6’3”, but a good rebounder and a terrific shooter both from the perimeter and the free throw line. The Orangemen would go to the postseason all three years of Mike’s career (a first for the school), and when younger brother Jimmy joined the team in 1973, the team would get to the NCAA tournament.

Jimmy played shooting guard, and was one of the best clutch shooters in Syracuse history. Mike was an outstanding free throw shooter, and Jimmy was even better. Jimmy would team up with Rudy Hackett, and give the Orangemen a Cinderella story run to the Final Four in 1975.

The Lee brothers would score a combined 2,516 points at Syracuse, and shot 606 of 744 (81%) from the free throw line. They were easily the best brother combination in Syracuse history.

In the early 1980s, the Rautins family legacy began at Syracuse when Leo transferred from Minnesota. Leo Rautins was an outstanding passing power forward, who often played at the top of the key. He would score 12.1 points a game in his three year career (1981-1983), along with 5.0 assists and 6.1 rebounds. Leo is best known for his game winning tip in to win the 1981 Big East tournament in triple overtime. He would be a first round draft pick, and would play for the Philadelphia 76’ers a few years before injuries kept him out of the league.

Leo’s son Andy is quite familiar to Syracuse fans these days as the teams three point shooting threat. Andy did not play much his freshman year, but has been a solid starter/sixth man ever since, and is entering his senior season. Rautins has been a regular on the Canadian National Team the past three seasons (which Leo has coached). The Rautins have scored a combined 1,728 points for Syracuse, and counting.

Finally, we get to the Triche/Hart family. Howard Triche barely played his first two seasons, before becoming a solid starter his junior and senior years. He would score 748 points in his career. Jason Hart was the starting point guard for Syracuse for four seasons (1997-2000), and has been in the NBA for the past 8 years. Hart was a tremendous defensive guard, with good scoring ability, and average point guard ability. Triche/Hart would score a combined 2,251 points for the Orangemen.

If I had to pick family as the top, I’d go with the Rautins duo, giving a nod to the Kirkwood Lees.